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Old 11-06-2017, 10:40 PM   #1
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RV Industry Death Spiral

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/opinion-the-rv-industry-death-spiral-part-1/
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:47 AM   #2
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Just proves - ANYBODY can publish themselves on the internet. The only one in denial is Mr. Gerber, but what would you expect? He was his own self proclaimed expert on RVs 15 years before he even owned an RV? I've been listening to the "spiral down" nonsense for decades, yet it only spirals up.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:51 PM   #3
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Sales are up but is quality? I have been very fortunate to have very few issues with my Redwood and the issues I had were not manufacturing issues. That isn’t true for many who purchase an RV which is the point Mr Gerber makes. He also makes the point that it is difficult to get service after purchase. Manufacturers don’t want to deal with the issues. They want the dealer to fix the problem. Dealers are stuck fixing issues that should not have left the factory. Dealers are not equipped to handle all of the repairs from new and older RVs. I am taking my Redwood in today to have a Schintech motor replaced. I made the appointment in September.
Maybe you see things I don’t. You have been RVing a lot longer than me. I hope you are right.
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Old 11-07-2017, 03:28 PM   #4
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Oh I'm not saying it is a good thing. Quality is poor, Dealerships dodge the bullet, and the factories don't care. My point is, the industry has been that way for decades before Mr. Gerber ever starting writing about it, so any profoundness he has to think it is a bubble about to burst or a spiraling sink hole is just funny. The market survives and grows........ except for those no longer with us that gambled on trying to produce a reputable high quality product such as Teton, Carriage, Monaco, to name a few.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:15 AM   #5
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I see your point. Thanks.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:46 AM   #6
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With record sales/income in the rv industry producing such poor quality products, if I owned a business I'd welcome that kind of "Death Spiral".
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:20 PM   #7
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We agree with Atom Ant... We laugh and call Gerber Mr. Grumpy. His articles are always sour and surly, he complains loudly about all aspects of full timing, and constantly whines about the reality of it. We wonder: WHY does he associate himself with the industry that he hates so much??? Brad is right, it has ALWAYS been this way, and is not likely to change until they start with lemon laws that apply to RV's (as of now they do not). That will never happen because the RV lobby keeps those skids well greased. There are nearly NO organizations that represent the RVer: They all represent manufacturers and dealers and their interests, which ARE: Keep you buying new RV's because your 4 year old RV is a piece of junk.
We have taken the opinion that if the RV has a reasonable foundation, and you spend enough money on fixing and upgrades, you may end up with something worth having. We are trying this with our RW. So far, so good. I shudder at the thought of buying a NEW RV and starting over with all the problems. HORRIFYING. Still, we have spent a TON of scratch and would ***NEVER*** be able to come close to selling it for even a large loss. It's a little scary.

We have replaced and fixed so much that is like we have rebuilt it. But, it feels good now, and we feel confident that we have mitigated a lot of issues. There will still be issues, but that's just life in the RV lane. WE LOVE being full time and this is the cost.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:26 PM   #8
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I shudder at the thought of buying a NEW RV and starting over with all the problems. HORRIFYING. Still, we have spent a TON of scratch and would ***NEVER*** be able to come close to selling it for even a large loss. It's a little scary.
X2 ... Would hate to put our RW on the market right now and that's without some of the higher end upgrades that many folks have made.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:29 PM   #9
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Yes, if we ever did decide to upgrade, it would have to be to a special buyer who could appreciate the upgrades a little. We have made pro-active changes that prevented disasters before they happened, largely due to this forum bringing them to everyone's attention, like the problem with the washer hoses being poorly connected under the bed... it's so generous when everyone takes some time to share a weakness or problem they encountered. So many benefit.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:43 PM   #10
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Well I guess I stepped on a land mine by posting Mr Gerbers article. My wife and I are rookies at full timing with this our first year so if I find other land mines please excuse. :-)
I think I have posted before but will say again we have been very fortunate to have had minimal problems with our RW. We couldn’t be happier. I read and have spoken to so many others who have lived through and are living through major and minor issues that I wonder if there isn’t a way to force industry change. Just wondering out loud.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:52 PM   #11
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I agree with everyone above ~ couldn't imagine selling ours and starting over. And as Romany said, if we sold it, we would need to find a special buyer as I've lost count of how many upgrades and $$$ we've spent on it. But the upside is that we have a totally reliable, good handling, great riding and braking coach that is 5 years old and still turns heads and gets compliments. Everytime someone pulled in next to us this year they asked if it was new or a year old.


Couldn't see replacing it for anything short of a New Horizons or Spacecraft and then I'd have to get the Volvo too ..........
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:56 AM   #12
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Couldn't see replacing it for anything short of a New Horizons or Spacecraft and then I'd have to get the Volvo too ..........
Nothing wrong with that option!
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:35 PM   #13
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Agree Tom ! I've driven. Friends Volvo 630 with a custom bed that he hauls the Jeep on. Drives like a dream, ride is incredible, and he has about the same $$$ in it as I do in the Dually. Oh, and carries 250 gal of fuel and gets 9mpg towing a big Toy Hauler that it doesn't even care is back there.

I want one, just haven't figured out in semi-retirement how to swing it $$$ wise.
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:40 PM   #14
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Oh, and reason they pull a Toy Hauler is either his Slingshot or Razor ATV is in there along with motorcycle. Likes to have all their toys with them ......
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:56 AM   #15
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Well I guess I stepped on a land mine by posting Mr Gerbers article. My wife and I are rookies at full timing with this our first year so if I find other land mines please excuse. :-)
I think I have posted before but will say again we have been very fortunate to have had minimal problems with our RW. We couldn’t be happier. I read and have spoken to so many others who have lived through and are living through major and minor issues that I wonder if there isn’t a way to force industry change. Just wondering out loud.

Do not feel bad about your wondering!! I have been around the industry for many years and like anything the more moving parts the more problematic the item will become. The biggest problem people have today is they are not willing to try to self help their problems. If you purchase one of these "Moving Earthquakes" as has been referred to on here many times. (which by the way is the BEST true statement I have ever heard.) You have to be able to look at it from the aspect of what happens when you go through a real earth quake. Crap breaks and needs to be repaired, but how long is it going to take one asks? Well if you wait to have it done it might be a very long time. Ooorrrr you just try to take on the task yourself and "get'er done".

My last SOB had her for ten years and yes I had a major learning curve of things that broke. Mostly because of manufacturer errors or what I call money hungry decisions by the demise of this country's corporate greed and bean counters combined. So the first time around I special ordered my brand spankin' new dream house on wheels only to become very disgruntled, because of all the short cuts and problems that reared their ugly heads over the life of our time together. Keystone came through a number of times and helped me get through some of the tough times. But I still had a sour taste in my mouth after spending so much money then taking such a beating driving it off the lot and not knowing that service was pretty much non existent.

So hoping to make one more change up before retiring we looked for the last 2 years at used Class A motor homes. After a 1000 mile round trip to look at a coach that was made to look like a dream deal. Getting there and finding the truth to be it was pretty much destroyed beyond my wanting to repair and crunching the real numbers we went back to the 5er route. Well the major reason and goal to making the change was to try to incorporate being able to take our motorcycle with to enjoy the beautiful areas this country has to offer. Tried looking at toy haulers.... which just could not grasp us with anything that felt like home.

Then we happened on to the Redwood line and fell in love. Willing to give up on part of our dream of being able to take the motorcycle we started to look at options in the used market. Knowing full well what we would be getting into as far as no warranty. We started out finding one on line that was the front living room and went to look at it very close to home. Getting there I noticed another one on the lot that just came in on a trade. Well after looking at the one we came to look at, and not being to impressed with, just didn't grab our interest. We happened to walk into the one that just got dropped off not cleaned up yet..... we stepped into our 2014 38GK it was as if we both got hit by a semi of emotions that everyone one here has felt. Can you say "Love at first sight"...... and at a price that made us say "Hell Ya!!!".

Getting back to the subject, for those of us that have had these rigs over the years have watched an industry that has been marred by greed. We all know that with that greed they are going to take and pocket the cash where they can well knowing that the customer in the end is going to bear the brunt of it.

Well, it is what it is, and the way I look at it is there is opportunity starring you in the face at every moment of our life. So this time we took the chance knowing full well that we would have to endure making our new house on wheels the best it could be. Places like this forum have helped me to learn how to repair or better things on my time not some service bay by someone who is just there to collect a pay check. Not saying that all service people or dealers are substandard but the good ones are always backed up for months because they are just that good and everyone wants them to do the work.

I can see why the original owners traded our 38GK in. All the same reasons/issues that the great people on this sight have had to endure and find a way to correct or work around. Everyone on here has made my journey to making our new to us house the best it can be. Even if it is with some grumbles along the way....... So in the end the "death spiral" is just an opinion based on someone's and others experience. Please do not let it step on anyone's dream especially yours, because even with all the negative that seems to be in our world today. The way of life we all are trying to do and or accomplish is way better than sitting in a rocker waiting to die after our usefulness in the working world is complete.

To my Redwood family and I am so grateful to be a part of this and the other Redwood forum. Y'all have taught and given me so much insight to our new dream home to make it the best it can be.

Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to all.........

Tom N Gina

Oh yea and about that Motorcycle issue well there is more to that story and issue soon to be resolved and unveiled..... Hint: Piper Guy
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:48 AM   #16
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[QUOTE=TomNGina06;77790]Do not feel bad about your wondering!! I have been around the industry for many years and like anything the more moving parts the more problematic the item will become. The biggest problem people have today is they are not willing to try to self help their problems. If you purchase one of these "Moving Earthquakes" as has been referred to on here many times. (which by the way is the BEST true statement I have ever heard.) You have to be able to look at it from the aspect of what happens when you go through a real earth quake. Crap breaks and needs to be repaired, but how long is it going to take one asks? Well if you wait to have it done it might be a very long time. Ooorrrr you just try to take on the task yourself and "get'er done".

Nice writeup Tom

My last SOB had her for ten years and yes I had a major learning curve of things that broke. Mostly because of manufacturer errors or what I call money hungry decisions by the demise of this country's corporate greed and bean counters combined. So the first time around I special ordered my brand spankin' new dream house on wheels only to become very disgruntled, because of all the short cuts and problems that reared their ugly heads over the life of our time together. Keystone came through a number of times and helped me get through some of the tough times. But I still had a sour taste in my mouth after spending so much money then taking such a beating driving it off the lot and not knowing that service was pretty much non existent.

So hoping to make one more change up before retiring we looked for the last 2 years at used Class A motor homes. After a 1000 mile round trip to look at a coach that was made to look like a dream deal. Getting there and finding the truth to be it was pretty much destroyed beyond my wanting to repair and crunching the real numbers we went back to the 5er route. Well the major reason and goal to making the change was to try to incorporate being able to take our motorcycle with to enjoy the beautiful areas this country has to offer. Tried looking at toy haulers.... which just could not grasp us with anything that felt like home.

Then we happened on to the Redwood line and fell in love. Willing to give up on part of our dream of being able to take the motorcycle we started to look at options in the used market. Knowing full well what we would be getting into as far as no warranty. We started out finding one on line that was the front living room and went to look at it very close to home. Getting there I noticed another one on the lot that just came in on a trade. Well after looking at the one we came to look at, and not being to impressed with, just didn't grab our interest. We happened to walk into the one that just got dropped off not cleaned up yet..... we stepped into our 2014 38GK it was as if we both got hit by a semi of emotions that everyone one here has felt. Can you say "Love at first sight"...... and at a price that made us say "Hell Ya!!!".

Getting back to the subject, for those of us that have had these rigs over the years have watched an industry that has been marred by greed. We all know that with that greed they are going to take and pocket the cash where they can well knowing that the customer in the end is going to bear the brunt of it.

Well, it is what it is, and the way I look at it is there is opportunity starring you in the face at every moment of our life. So this time we took the chance knowing full well that we would have to endure making our new house on wheels the best it could be. Places like this forum have helped me to learn how to repair or better things on my time not some service bay by someone who is just there to collect a pay check. Not saying that all service people or dealers are substandard but the good ones are always backed up for months because they are just that good and everyone wants them to do the work.

I can see why the original owners traded our 38GK in. All the same reasons/issues that the great people on this sight have had to endure and find a way to correct or work around. Everyone on here has made my journey to making our new to us house the best it can be. Even if it is with some grumbles along the way....... So in the end the "death spiral" is just an opinion based on someone's and others experience. Please do not let it step on anyone's dream especially yours, because even with all the negative that seems to be in our world today. The way of life we all are trying to do and or accomplish is way better than sitting in a rocker waiting to die after our usefulness in the working world is complete.

To my Redwood family and I am so grateful to be a part of this and the other Redwood forum. Y'all have taught and given me so much insight to our new dream home to make it the best it can be.

Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to all.........

Tom N Gina

Oh yea and about that Motorcycle issue well there is more to that story and issue soon to be resolved and unveiled..... Hint: Piper Guy[/QUOT

Excellent write up Tom
You hit the nail on the head
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:51 PM   #17
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We agree with Atom Ant... We laugh and call Gerber Mr. Grumpy. His articles are always sour and surly, he complains loudly about all aspects of full timing, and constantly whines about the reality of it. We wonder: WHY does he associate himself with the industry that he hates so much??? Brad is right, it has ALWAYS been this way, and is not likely to change until they start with lemon laws that apply to RV's (as of now they do not). That will never happen because the RV lobby keeps those skids well greased. There are nearly NO organizations that represent the RVer: They all represent manufacturers and dealers and their interests, which ARE: Keep you buying new RV's because your 4 year old RV is a piece of junk.
We have taken the opinion that if the RV has a reasonable foundation, and you spend enough money on fixing and upgrades, you may end up with something worth having. We are trying this with our RW. So far, so good. I shudder at the thought of buying a NEW RV and starting over with all the problems. HORRIFYING. Still, we have spent a TON of scratch and would ***NEVER*** be able to come close to selling it for even a large loss. It's a little scary.

We have replaced and fixed so much that is like we have rebuilt it. But, it feels good now, and we feel confident that we have mitigated a lot of issues. There will still be issues, but that's just life in the RV lane. WE LOVE being full time and this is the cost.


Love the lifestyle. My DW can't overspend, no place to put it. I am saving a fortune! Don't miss the upkeep of a home. If I don't like my neighbors, I am free to move. No tornado shelter, just don't visit Oklahoma in April & May.



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Old 11-23-2017, 03:34 PM   #18
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Love the lifestyle. My DW can't overspend, no place to put it. I am saving a fortune! Don't miss the upkeep of a home. If I don't like my neighbors, I am free to move. No tornado shelter, just don't visit Oklahoma in April & May.



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That should be on a plaque in all fulltime rvs!
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Old 11-24-2017, 01:06 AM   #19
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Agree with the comments. We are carefully upgrading our 2015 38RL. Bought it with discs, but added the IS and Ron's 17.5" wheels. I wish we had a cover for the slide-in-slide, maybe next year. Also fixing some of the small issues that are always popping up.
Not much different from the house, but it doesn't go down many freeways!
By the way, Thanks to Titan Guy for all his advice and service to the RW community. I hope he enjoys his well deserved retirement.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:26 AM   #20
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Tom - not sure what the "hint" is but if it involves the Focus , we did our first tow with it last week. Short answer is only way to tell it was back there was look in camera. Tracking is great, fuel mileage changed .1 mpg. I can get a glimpse of it in a sharp turn but that's all. So far very happy with the decision and also with the way it's setup with tow and brake equipment.
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