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Old 04-24-2013, 08:51 PM   #1
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I realize that many folks are concerned about the quality that goes into the production of today's RVs. I too share that concern however we must remember that these castles on wheels are still made with faulty human hands. Many times I hear people comparing today's RV with today's automobile. They are worlds apart in quality and how they're made.

Back in the 60's as the American automobile was getting more complex, people started demanding better quality. Soon the foreign cars hit our roads and the manufactures were forced to provide what people wanted…better quality. To do this they had to remove and replace the human element of the manufacturing. They soon brought in very expensive robots and laid off the workers. The machines always did as they were told and never had a bad day. The quality went up as did the prices of the cars and people were laid off. The money hungry companies were the bad guys when there weren't as many jobs. When really it was the consumer demanding better quality that caused the lay offs

The RV manufacturers still uses these faulty American hands that are capable of doing great things but not consistently. "Hand Made" does have it's draw backs. Someday they'll be replaced by machines and then the buyers will have better quality and complain about not having jobs to afford these luxuries. The only human element will be fixing the robots and designing the RV.
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:01 PM   #2
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Well said!

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Old 04-24-2013, 09:04 PM   #3
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Sorry Dave... some of that is right. There are many quality built prefab "Park Units" using ISO standards at RV shows. Built by human hands on an assembly line to a higher standard. While these only travel down the road to their final destimation, they have very few problems.



Redwood can have better quality without robots by passing on all constructive communications from owners to the engineering dept and the shop floor for on the line improvements or quality gates to ensure things like satelite cables are properly run and checked. Same fit and finsh model can be seen on every car commercial. The GM Oshawa plant just down the road from me makes that best kick ass Camero ever built!



If the QC Inspector from Hanes can make a good pair of tighty whitey's so can the RV industry with motivated, trained employes and less robots. Poorly trained employees are robots too since they don't take pride in what they are doing.



Don't take this the wrong way but if you want to yell USA and Built in the USA... start doing things right the first time and take pride in doing right.
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by BradPAjax
Sorry Dave... some of that is right. There are many quality built prefab "Park Units" using ISO standards at RV shows. Built by human hands on an assembly line to a higher standard. While these only travel down the road to their final destimation, they have very few problems.



Redwood can have better quality without robots by passing on all constructive communications from owners to the engineering dept and the shop floor for on the line improvements or quality gates to ensure things like satelite cables are properly run and checked. Same fit and finsh model can be seen on every car commercial. The GM Oshawa plant just down the road from me makes that best kick ass Camero ever built!



If the QC Inspector from Hanes can make a good pair of tighty whitey's so can the RV industry with motivated, trained employes and less robots. Poorly trained employees are robots too since they don't take pride in what they are doing.



Don't take this the wrong way but if you want to yell USA and Built in the USA... start doing things right the first time and take pride in doing right.
Well said!
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:35 PM   #5
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I have discussed this, in detail, on other forums.

Most all of non-motorized RVs aremanufactured in a "piece-work" atmosphere. It is the only known way to mass produce on a production line. Allrv trailers are built in a side by side configuration and a certain amount ofportions or segments of that trailer areproduced(built)in a certain time frame.
It's all about dead lines and production.
If a person that builds these units were to be paid by the hour you might see threervs come off the line once a month. Ya think people are complaining now because of what they got? Just think if they couldn't get it.
I, like everyone else on this forum wishes that our unit was individually hand crafted, just for us.

If you're looking for hand crafted you may want to start at "Horizon". They start at$180,000.00.

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Old 04-24-2013, 10:52 PM   #6
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I personally don't expect prefection, ha, ha, but I do expect a QC process that shows certain items or sections have been looked at after the step or unit has been completed. Yes it will add a small amount to the overall process. When I look @ a forum and no one has really bad issues, like end caps not sealed properly vs. one that does and shows me a chk list so I can judge the dealership on the company quality, another $100.00 is not unreasonable. Remember AMERICAN's combat weapons are build by the LOWEST BIDDER. To protect your child while in COMBAT, THINK ABOUT THAT!Edited by: RifRaff
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:54 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dave

I have discussed this, in detail, on other forums.

Most all of non-motorized RVs aremanufactured in a "piece-work" atmosphere. It is the only known way to mass produce on a production line. Allrv trailers are built in a side by side configuration and a certain amount ofportions or segments of that trailer areproduced(built)in a certain time frame.
It's all about dead lines and production.
If a person that builds these units were to be paid by the hour you might see threervs come off the line once a month. Ya think people are complaining now because of what they got? Just think if they couldn't get it.
I, like everyone else on this forum wishes that our unit was individually hand crafted, just for us.

If you're looking for hand crafted you may want to start at "Horizon". They start at$180,000.00.

Dave from Maine
Good point Dave....and my wife and I have thought about New Horizons because one of her family members had one. Unfortunately I think our next one will have a motor in it for her comfort.

dave&ginny
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:48 PM   #8
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Truth: I
Worked for 1 of the BIG COMMUNICATION co. We had 12' minutes & 30 seconds to RESOLVE "ANY" TV, Internet or telephone, or we were written up. 3 writeup's in 90 days you are on probation 2 writeup in the next 90 days you are fired. Lucky I was Tier 2 Support, i had been t1 support, we had 15 minutes to fix any issue the customer advocate could not resolve. We had 50-100 email updates a day sent out to read on our own time and be tested at supervisor decression. Fail 2 times, your fired. Pressure, pressure, pressure. The people who own the stock want MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. THE PRESSURE AMOST KILLED ME. MANY People quit, or lose their wife or husband.
Now the reason I retired: we were all called into the company auditorium and showed a slide that showed in 2014 the company will pay the $4000.00 penalty per employee so they can drop all insurance for the employee, by default entire family loses insurance. The company will supply papers to apply for OMABACARE, BTW you will need to pay for the printing and do the paperwork off company property. 2nd note: IRS States insurance for a family of 4 will cost @ least $20,000.00
Now do you know why the work is sometimes sub-par. Edited by: RifRaff
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:12 AM   #9
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I blame the CEO’s of any corporation. They are not happy making a 15% profit. They seem to think they need 50% or more profit. They will cheapen their own product to barely last to the end of warranty with the hopes that you will buy new parts to fix what you have or better yet buy a new one from them. Gone are the days of We build it to last so you dont have to worry products. They also push their craftsman to the point that they have to take short cuts or lose there jobs. If someone told me my coach would have taken 3 more week to build then it did when I ordered it I bet 95% of the common problems that we all have wouldn’t exist because the craftsman had the time to build it right.
Manufactures need to step up to the plate and take responsibility for there product and not blame the dealer for missing something they didn’t do of even finish!
When was the last time they sat down with there customers and ask for suggestions?

Dave we were in a New Horizon this weekend. And there is no comparison between the 2. We fell in love with it.
No motorcoach for us been there done that and it wasnt very convenient for us.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:44 AM   #10
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I'm not sure I follow this... you are on a Redwood forum extolling the virtues of New Horizon? Seems counter productive to me.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave&Ginny
I realize that many folks are concerned about the quality that goes into the production of today's RVs. I too share that concern however we must remember that these castles on wheels are still made with faulty human hands. Many times I hear people comparing today's RV with today's automobile. They are worlds apart in quality and how they're made.

Back in the 60's as the American automobile was getting more complex, people started demanding better quality. Soon the foreign cars hit our roads and the manufactures were forced to provide what people wanted…better quality. To do this they had to remove and replace the human element of the manufacturing. They soon brought in very expensive robots and laid off the workers. The machines always did as they were told and never had a bad day. The quality went up as did the prices of the cars and people were laid off. The money hungry companies were the bad guys when there weren't as many jobs. When really it was the consumer demanding better quality that caused the lay offs

The RV manufacturers still uses these faulty American hands that are capable of doing great things but not consistently. "Hand Made" does have it's draw backs. Someday they'll be replaced by machines and then the buyers will have better quality and complain about not having jobs to afford these luxuries. The only human element will be fixing the robots and designing the RV.

Dave - I agree with your rationale, as in the Marine industry 80% of accident/incidents are caused by human error. It is a fact of life - humans make mistakes for a variety of reasons.

However, with an effective QMS and implementing the learnings from human factors training you can mitigate the risks of employing humans and still turn out quality products.

Unfortunately most companies have to experience a major incident prior to implementing effective SOP's to mitigate the risks of human error. My last company lost a ship before they bought into human factors concepts, eliminating the potential for single person errors and SOP's. The airline industryhad a similar experience withthe crash of 2 - 747's on a runway in Tenerife. Shipping companies and airlines that have bought into this system still have humans on the Bridge and in the Cockpit, but the accident frequency has reduced significantly.

I can only hope the RV industry jumps on the quality wandwagon before manufacturing moves to Asia.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RifRaff
Truth: I
Worked for 1 of the BIG COMMUNICATION co. We had 12' minutes & 30 seconds to RESOLVE "ANY" TV, Internet or telephone, or we were written up. 3 writeup's in 90 days you are on probation 2 writeup in the next 90 days you are fired. Lucky I was Tier 2 Support, i had been t1 support, we had 15 minutes to fix any issue the customer advocate could not resolve. We had 50-100 email updates a day sent out to read on our own time and be tested at supervisor decression. Fail 2 times, your fired. Pressure, pressure, pressure. The people who own the stock want MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. THE PRESSURE AMOST KILLED ME. MANY People quit, or lose their wife or husband.
Now the reason I retired: we were all called into the company auditorium and showed a slide that showed in 2014 the company will pay the $4000.00 penalty per employee so they can drop all insurance for the employee, by default entire family loses insurance. The company will supply papers to apply for OMABACARE, BTW you will need to pay for the printing and do the paperwork off company property. 2nd note: IRS States insurance for a family of 4 will cost @ least $20,000.00
Now do you know why the work is sometimes sub-par.

I can relate to your experiences. My last company was the same until they lost a ship. Then they realised how much lack of safety and employee moralecost. Unfortunately most CEO's today are short term so they don't look at the long term benefits of Safety, Risk Mitigation and a motivated and well trained worforce.

Remember, every company pays for safety and training one way or another.
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Old 04-25-2013, 06:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNDRPSI
I blame the CEO’s of any corporation. They are not happy making a 15% profit. They seem to think they need 50% or more profit. They will cheapen their own product to barely last to the end of warranty with the hopes that you will buy new parts to fix what you have or better yet buy a new one from them. Gone are the days of We build it to last so you dont have to worry products. *They also push their craftsman to the point that they have to take short cuts or lose there jobs. If someone told me my coach would have taken 3 more week to build then it did when I ordered it I bet 95% of the common problems that we all have wouldn’t exist because the craftsman had the time to build it right.*
Manufactures need to step up to the plate and take responsibility for there product and not blame the dealer for missing something they didn’t do of even finish!
*When was the last time they sat down with there customers and ask for suggestions? *

Dave we were in a New Horizon this weekend. *And there is no comparison between the 2. We fell in love with it. *
No motorcoach for us been there done that and it wasnt very convenient for us.*
I looked at them and the Excel Limited, I went with Redwood not for the cost, but from word of mouth, wish I would have read some of these issues back then, now I'll wait two years until the warranty is over and decide what I want next. For now I'll try to keep it patch up with you guy's until then.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:41 PM   #14
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I too looked at the Excels and went with the Redwood over Excel. The problems that I read about on the Excels was to many and big for me to fix. What I did read about on the Redwoods was very minimal and easy enough for me to take care of. And talking with Redwood at the Rally last year I felt pretty good about them standing behind there customers. So far very happy with our Redwood. She will be 1 year old in July and we already have alittle over 8000 mile on her, and have been living full time in her since March of this year.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:22 PM   #15
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I'm on this forum because I own a Redwood, I'm not on there payroll, I didn't need to go to the plant no more than I would go to Kansas City to see my Ford F450 made, I bought from a dealer on both. I've never had a problem with the truck, but if I did I wouldn't go to Kansas City for repairs, I would go to the dealer.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:36 PM   #16
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We have put over 32,000 miles on our 2012 36FL since our coach delivery in March 2012. We have had some tire issues, an axel issue (Redwood replaced axel with no questions), minor issue with dishwasher, cosmetic issues with seams inside trailer, roof issue (Redwood authorized fix and our local dealer Ocean Grove RV, St. Augustine, FL fixed in 4 days including parts and glue delivery from Redwood). Our purchasing dealer Lazydays, Tampa fixed issues prior to acceptance. We paid to have a laser alignment check of our axels and the technician found both axels to be well within industry specifications/limits. I can honestly say we have had some issues, but none that were not immediately authorized for fix by Redwood. We even took our coach back to the factory for a warranty punch list and some small body repair (thanks to a big yellow pole at Camp Hatteras entrance) and the factory did an outstanding job. We have given our coach a workout, we have taken it from FL through NC to MO, up into the Badlands over the Tetons into CA, AZ, UT (all the wonderful national parks/canyon lands), TX, LA, MS, NC, SC, MI, OH, PA, DE, MD, and VA.This summer our trip will take us from FL to Nova Scotia along the East Coast. Our coach has responded in an outstanding manner to our travels and varying terrain.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:05 AM   #17
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Atom Ant,
Why do I have to continue to repeat all the issues with my unit. Maybe you should read all my post, of all the problems and repairs I've had, instead of just flapping your jaws or just stick your head in the sand and hope nothing hits you in your ass.

LillyputzEdited by: lillyputz
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyputz
Atom Ant,
Why do I have to continue to repeat all the issues with my unit. Maybe you should read all my post, of all the problems and repairs I've had, instead of just flapping your jaws or just stick your head in the sand and hope nothing hits you in your ass.

Lillyputz

Easy buddy easy this could have been done with a bit better wording

Dan



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Old 04-30-2013, 01:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyputz
Atom Ant,
Why do I have to continue to repeat all the issues with my unit. Maybe you should read all my post, of all the problems and repairs I've had, instead of just flapping your jaws or just stick your head in the sand and hope nothing hits you in your ass.

Lillyputz
For someone that likes to beat the drums on how bad he has it...why be shy now? All anybody has heard so far is how bad you've got screwed by the big uncaring company. You should be able to further your cause and gather friends with details of this bad experience.

If the rumors are correct, the company went so far as to have your trailer shipped back to them so they could go all the way through it and then shipped back to you on their dime. Sure sounds like they gave a pretty good effort to me. Was this the "Flapping your Jaw" or "Hitting your ass" time? Excuse my ignorance but I get confused with some of these profound sayings so eloquently stated.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyputz
Atom Ant,
Why do I have to continue to repeat all the issues with my unit. Maybe you should read all my post, of all the problems and repairs I've had, instead of just flapping your jaws or just stick your head in the sand and hope nothing hits you in your ass.

Lillyputz
Did I say something on this thread? As I look back, I don't see anything
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